Curse

Hugh Manatee · Aug 26, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Technically you should already be charged unless erfshaker misses or something, so it goes erf>whirl>crude>whirl for a triple hit and that should pretty much kill most anything and leave another erfshaker salvo if you need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

That's nice Hugh, point is that

* It doesn't matter much if mobs can act - they do stupid things anyway, so I prefer killing them fast. There are builds that allow me to pump out more damage than an ES build, so ES is inferior.

* A minion master, when used correctly, pretty much ensures zero movement and zero activity from the mobs (apart from stupidly trying to beat up the minions).

* Earth or water eles are fully capable of rendering the AI melee nearly useless to the point that they can be saved for last, a great help in hard mode - grouped casters hardly ever move, single or scattered ones are harder though, but ES won't help much with that.

* yeah, they do stupid stuff like fire spirit rifts, E- surges and Searing flames that can wipe the party in 1 shot(dumbass heroes vs faction and nightfall bosses). 100 blades only does the damage, ES disables a large part of the mob AND does the damage(lke I said, smiter and/or chaneller supported crude/whirl=yellow 100s on every adjacent target and recharges ES instantly). I know a 100 blade whirling attack on a MoP target with a lot of foes around might technically outdamage stuff on paper but you have no way to stop the scattering and no inherent defensive measures to stop stuff like the above from happening in the mean time. DP attrition will get to you if you don't deal with the stuff that hits hard.

*they only chaff foes till they die, and being about 10 levels lower then the enemy they will, and that's assuming you got them in the first place. Dont get me wrong, I like minions, and I use them with my hammer guy, but if I have to leave him behind, like in the djin city, or get in a situation where they all go bye bye(the burning forest in sacnoth)I do just as well without him.

* water/earth/whatever can't suppress a whole mob in 1 spot without significant downtime(i do like earth in HM, i squished all but 2 zones in elona on my ranger with an earth hero backing me up). The ES warrior is good to go every time crude or whirl hits, and can put the melee on top of the casters if you're good at pulling.

What makes the erfshaker warrior whup ass at a level equal to if not greater then 100 blades(though when te 2 join forces it's the most ****ing epic thing ever) is that in 1 bar you get one of the best snares that can be maintained almost indefinitely, a big enough AoE spike to drop most pve mobs in a few seconds, party wide defense(both offensive shut down and passive buffs if you squeeze in SY), and that's just 3-4 slots on your bar. You still have room for single target spiking with asuran scan and/or crushing/pulverizing, a couple utility type skills like light of deldrimor, drunk master, skippy the wonder assassin in a can, e management from auspicious blow and what not. There might be like 12 guys that have enough HP that the amount of damage you can spam with HB starts to make a difference over how much you an spam with ES without overkilling and most of those guys are all by themselves making the whirling 100 trick not work right(or in the case of the above ubre bosses benefit from having their whole party shut down while you kill them), but for most of the guys you fight in PvE ES can roll them just fine at about the same speed with added benefits.

qvtkc · Aug 26, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Hugh - what - both Crude Swing and Whirlwind Attack does +20ish damage. To get 100's you'd need to do 80 base damage. In normal mode? Ok fine. Hard mode? Eh... k.

Well, if you say so, I'll run ES tonight to see what happens. Honestly it was a while ago I used it (vanquishing oh god I'm glad its over). Empirical testing ftw.

I really think you underestimate both mm's and eles though. They have huge defensive capabilities, and yes a water/earth ele really can keep every melee guy in an enemy group at bay until they can be dealt with (Blurred Vision, water snares, Wards, and so on). Yeah minions might not be the best option in Sacnoth Valley lol. That's like saying jotuns can't be knocked down so ES is useless against them.

Of course you should bring whatever suits the area you are playing in.

Seems we are coming from different angles though. You play a lot with heroes while I prefer full-human teams, or at least 2+6 which plays a lot different than pure H/H teams.

Field Report - In-Game Testing of Earth Shaker on Daily Zaishen Mission
Location: Dunes of Despair (hard mode)
Subject: Earth Shaker
Assessment: "Despair" is about right

Comments: Earth Shaker sucks like a Shing Jea hooke-- I mean ritualist, at least in this mission. Not enough enemies around me to instantly recharge it in the way that Hugh described. Also, many of them had blocking stances etc., meaning that my expensive skills just whiffed most of the time. Those that didn't have blocking usually had some other BS like Kinetic Armor, essentially destroying the base damage of my hammer. Not that that damage was that much anyway. A far cry from the promised 100's, instead I was hitting 30's and 50's - and those were the good hits. Sure, knockdown is great, but that's about it: enemies die before you can knock them down twice, and in that case, you could just run Brawling Headbutt/Co1kB/YMLaD instead, and knock down straight through blocking.

Conclusion: Feels bad man, on the next run I used WE scythe and raped the mission

Picuso · Aug 27, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

*snip*

Conclussion: you found a place where ES doesn't work, so ES sucks everywhere. Ok.

qvtkc · Aug 27, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Well, it was the Zaishen mission of the day. I'll try ES today as well.

I expect it to be a little bit better if there are more enemies and less blocking, but the damage and the superiority of other knockdown skills (if you want to bother with kd at all) won't change much.

If you wish to post actual gameplay experiences instead of optimal-case theorycrafting, then feel free to do so.

draxynnic · Aug 27, 2009, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Conclussion: you found a place where ES doesn't work, so ES sucks everywhere. Ok.

Pretty much - I could have told you ES wouldn't have worked well in that mission without trying. The build does require having a reasonable number of enemies around for maximum benefit. But the same is also true about 100 Blades - did you try that in the mission in question?

When there are few enemies, DS- or WE-based builds are better. But, guess what? Guild Wars is all about using the right build for the situation.

Frankly, I wouldn't use ES unless the average mob size was at least 4, preferably 6-ish.

qvtkc · Aug 27, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

But the same is also true about 100 Blades - did you try that in the mission in question?

No, second run was with WE, and apart from that I haven't actually played that mission for over a year, I think. 100 Blades have one advantage over Earth Shaker though, in that the extra damage isn't affected by blocking, and will thus trigger Barbs/MoP. Also, having an unblockable attack (S/M Slash) is nice. I think it would have worked better than ES did.

But admittedly, it might have been the worst possible mission for ES. Let's hope the Zaishen mission for today will give the opportunity for a more fair comparison.

Field Report -

Location: Vizunah Square (hard mode)
Subject: Earth Shaker
Assessment: Second verse better than the first

Comments: Dunes was a rough ride for Earth Shaker, but you'd expect that with a gazillion enemies running around in huge battles, it would really come into its own. And you know what? You'd be right. This is probably the best mission in GW for any type of AoE skill. I could rush into a group, hit once, knock them all down, and unlike in Dunes, my other two attacks would fully charge ES for repeated knockdown. This actually came in handy a couple of times - the afflicted ritualists have Flesh of my Flesh which they'd use to bring back old annoyances. And there's just something infinitely satisfying with interrupting a rez, isn't there!

Admittedly, the damage still wasn't as high as it could be with other builds (20's, 50's at the most, on a slow weapon), but spammable AoE attacks made up for that, at the cost of leaving me starved for energy quite a lot. Speaking of Crude Swing (the energy hog in question), I learned to use it with care: -40 armor apparently being a lot in hard mode, I took a Lightning Orb to the head for 463 or so damage.

Conclusion: 100 Blades would probably do more straight damage, but it was fun to knock down the entire world at once.

draxynnic · Aug 28, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, second run was with WE, and apart from that I haven't actually played that mission for over a year, I think. 100 Blades have one advantage over Earth Shaker though, in that the extra damage isn't affected by blocking, and will thus trigger Barbs/MoP. Also, having an unblockable attack (S/M Slash) is nice. I think it would have worked better than ES did.

That's true, now that you mention it - there have been times I've used 100B as a means of getting around blocking, and the Enchanted do have a lot of blocking. I think it gets around the blind that the other Enchanted like to throw around as well.

Sun and Moon, however, is something I've always used for the double attack and never for getting through block chances - it's satisfying when you do get to Sun and Moon something that thinks its protected from physical attacks, but since you have to be hitting to build up the adrenaline to use it in the first place, its overall usefulness in punching through a block chance is... low.

Glad to hear it worked better for you in Vizuneh. You're right, 100B almost certainly would have dished out more pain (WW+100B in a big mob of Afflicted = ouch) but that's where you're trading damage for not letting the enemy (d/h)eal damage.

A zealous hammer mod would probably help with energy, since any situation in which the build really shines you'd probably be getting around 4-6 energy back per swing and more when you Whirlwind. Speaking of which, I should really get around to assembling a proper zealous hammer for my Warrior sometime (as opposed to one that's zealous and max damage and, well, that's about it).

Picuso · Aug 28, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Admittedly, the damage still wasn't as high as it could be with other builds (20's, 50's at the most, on a slow weapon),

Just a small damage buff (SoH, Orders, whatever) helps a lot if you want to do big damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

but spammable AoE attacks made up for that, at the cost of leaving me starved for energy quite a lot.

Zealous Hammer. It's the only "required" thing in a ES skill bar. With 2 enemies you will gaining 5 energy (Crude + WW + ES), enough to use another Crude ^^'

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Speaking of Crude Swing (the energy hog in question), I learned to use it with care: -40 armor apparently being a lot in hard mode, I took a Lightning Orb to the head for 463 or so damage.

Crude is something like Frenzy: Use it wrong and you will suffer ^^'

I'm glad you enjoyed the build

qvtkc · Aug 28, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Zealous hammer? Hmm, I have a nice one somewhere, I never used it because zealous on a hammer seems, well, like a bad idea. I'll check it out.

Oh, but S/M Slash really is lovely. You'd think that if they block, you'll never get the needed adrenaline. But oh hey they are blocking. Why am I in Flail? Pop Enraging Charge and wait until one hit gets through block. Of course if 100 Blades is currently up you might want to assess the situation and see if the slower attacking is worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Just a small damage buff (SoH, Orders, whatever) helps a lot if you want to do big damage.

Ok. Like. Any buff that does a constant damage increase per hit would be better used with a fast weapon. The presence of such a skill in the team makes hammer a worse, not better, option.

Picuso · Aug 28, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Ok. Like. Any buff that does a constant damage increase per hit would be better used with a fast weapon. The presence of such a skill in the team makes hammer a worse, not better, option.

Crude Swing and WW will get benefit of those Damage Buffs. But I'm not saying that you must put a damage buff when you're hammering.

But, if more party members can use those buffs, your hammer will crush skulls faster ^^'

draxynnic · Aug 29, 2009, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Ok. Like. Any buff that does a constant damage increase per hit would be better used with a fast weapon. The presence of such a skill in the team makes hammer a worse, not better, option.

Not if you're hitting multiple targets per swing. A WE Cyclone/Whirlwind build may well gain more out of it with the faster attack rate, but the earthshaker build in the right circumstances should get at least as much use out of damage buffs (apart from MoP and Barbs, of course) as anything else despite the slower attack rate.

Bobby2 · Aug 29, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Ok. Like. Any buff that does a constant damage increase per hit would be better used with a fast weapon. The presence of such a skill in the team makes hammer a worse, not better, option.

...let's all run Locust's Fury sins, then

Sigon · Aug 30, 2009, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Personally i'm very fond of Dwarven Battle stance. 10 seconds of constant interuption along followed up by whatever attack skills you wish and a knock down is too good to pass.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 30, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Dwarven Battle Stance is nowhere near effective. In order to maintain it, you need to have near-max (if not max) Deldrimor rank and use Dwarven Stability, or you can use a KD and "On Your Knees!", a Warrior Shout from Factions.

Either way, you can't use skills while DBS is up or else it ends... no thank you.

Sigon · Aug 30, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Yeah ' the thing is i'm interupting. There are others with more effective ways to deal damage while i keep whatever helpless. I found it good vs bosses due to the nature of the interuption. Let\s be fair no mesmer can react in less then half a second while the stance alows you to interupt like that.

As for maintaining a zealous hammer does quite well. Once you execute your adrenaline skills pop renewing smash and proceed as planned.

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

You're interrupting one target and doing less damage than you could otherwise be doing.
With Earth Shaker, you can knockdown an entire group of enemies (shutting them down), hit them all for a load of damage and have ES ready to go again. Why would I want to be interrupting a target for 10 seconds and then get to killing him when I could be killing him quickly in those 10 seconds. Frankly, if my target lives for 10 seconds I would be ashamed.

Sigon · Aug 30, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

True i suppose , but ES is more usefull for melee mobs. DBS is quite good in bringing down casters.
Damage is good , but utility should not be forsaken , after all there are 8 slots in a party.

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigon

True i suppose , but ES is more usefull for melee mobs. DBS is quite good in bringing down casters.
Damage is good , but utility should not be forsaken , after all there are 8 slots in a party.

ES is utility. ES is also fine in bringing down casters. A caster cannot cast if he's been knocked down for 3 seconds and he will never cast if he's a corpse.
The only downside is that caster's do not bunch up as much as melee mobs, but that only means that ES is not knocking down as many enemies.
ES may not be operating at peak performance in this case, but it's still operating above that of DBS. Besides, knocking down and killing an enemy healer/protter/resser is usually worth the trouble.

Though, yes, there are 8 slots in a party (usually) and utility should not ever be forsaken in that case. But you are a warrior and damage is your goal.

Sigon · Aug 30, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Is my goal if there isn't enough of it otherwise. Each skill has it's merit. Like i said DBS is quite good against bosses.

DBS you can use it right off the bat rather then charge it so whatever your target it it will not get more then one skill of before being tied up. Unlike ES which has to be charged but has AoE knockdown.

I'm not advocating that it's better , but i hate it when good skills are shunned because they aren't as simplistic to use as others.

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 30, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

ES doesn't take long to charge. FGJ (no casting time) + EC (no casting time) = 8 adr. ES can be used on the second hit. DBS is crap.